English language proverbial statements and New Testament theological teachings relating to corporal punishment/smacking/spanking

This post has been republished in a new book referenced below:

Amazon.com: Thy Rod and Thy Staff They Comfort Me - Book IV: Selected Essays on the Subject of Spanking Children in Support of Peaceful Parenting (9780978533984): Martin, Samuel: Books

Who said, We said, You said, They said, He said, She said, God said, man said, I said, No one said

Who said, We said, You said, They said, He said, She said, God said, man said, I said, No one said

by Samuel Martin

One of the more unfortunate aspects of the whole corporal punishment/smacking/spanking debate is the diversity of opinions surrounding the same basic information found in the Bible.

Yes, the Biblical texts in fact have not changed in 2,000 or more years, but what people have been saying about them - now the changes there are significant and varied.

This is often because of the issue of what someone said about the Biblical texts, hence the title of this post.

Who said, We said, You said, They said, He said, She said, God said, man said, I said, No one said

Most people advocating corporal punishment are lightning quick to quote the book of Proverbs as the general authoritative source (even before the New Testament) and the Biblical authority for corporal punishment/spanking/smacking.

Yet, when it comes to how people interpret those verses, it often becomes a question of what someone else said about the texts themselves that animates the opinions many people hold concerning this issue.

MASSIVE CONFUSION EXISTS CONCERNING WHAT THESE TEXTS MEAN

It will come as no surprise to anyone who has studied this issue even superficially that such a wide range of opinions and views exists on this issue that it is in fact quite hard for anyone to come to any unanimity of belief.

Let's start with the most extreme example and one which, in fact, is so widespread and a part of Western culture of the English speaking world since it first appeared in the "raunchy satirical poem" 'Hudibras' by Samuel Butler in the late 17th century. Yes, that ubiquitous phrase:

"Spare the rod, spoil the child"

Anyone who has anything to do with my FB page (www.facebook.com/byblechyld) will note that numerous times people have quoted this as if it comes from the Holy Bible. Some confidently assert the same to their own major shock when they discover the Bible never mentions this phrase. But some people just continue to perpetuate error unknowingly.

This example really helps us understand how much work there is to do because people have just identified cultural ideas which exist in 17th century literature and now these phrases have been put in God's mouth as Holy Writ. How unfortunate, but true.

Pass the story and what do you get?

I think most of us recognize how things can get jumbled as they pass from person to person. I remember growing up in grade school how one time my class got in a circle and the teacher told one person a very specific group of sentences. Then that person is supposed to tell the person next to them and so on. And what comes out the other end? A jumbled hodgepodge of unintelligible mumbo-jumbo that has almost no relevance to the original story at all.

Let us not misunderstand the fact that this is happening not only concerning innocents stories told in grade school, but, in fact, we have things which are traditional teachings passed down from previous generations as if they came directly from Christ Himself!

We are all familiar with some fairy tales which we have inherited from our previous generations. Many of these stories represent in some cases a Bible for the unlearned. Access to Biblical texts for the laity has only in the last five hundred years been more the norm. For the first 1,500 years of the history of the Christian Church, generally speaking, the Bible and its message was left in the hands of religious leaders. The laity had very little access to the Biblical material.

It is for this reason that stories started to develop. I remember my late father writing about fairy tales in a paper called "Fairy Tales and the Biblical Revelation" in 1981. He talked about the example of Jack and the Beanstalk. When we review this story, we notice numerous parallels with the story of another 'Jack' but this time it is someone from the Holy Scriptures. The "Jack" in question here is Jacob.

Instead of Jacob seeing a vision of a ladder going up to heaven, the beanstalk enters the picture due to cultural differences. And God in heaven is replaced with the giant. And what does the giant say? 'Fe Fi Fo Fum.' This is a symbolic phrase that refers to the name of God 'Yahweh' (eiou).

Many of these fairy tales were previously biblical stories which have just been jumbled and mixed up because people did not have access to the Biblical texts as dad talked about.

Could this be at work in some of these texts dealing with corporal punishment/smacking/spanking?

This could very well be the case. Much more research is needed into this material from the Middle Ages and the Early Church in particular, but I have noted in other posts that we have evidence of early Christian texts from the third century which interpret the texts in Proverbs as the words used by a father to control a child rather than referring to a literal rod. See the following for more information in this regard. http://samuelmartin.blogspot.co.il/2011/10/i-was-wrong-and-how-i-intend-to-make-it.html

Finally, there are prevailing beliefs among many English speaking Christians that corporal punishment is a teaching which is just common sense and conventional wisdom which is timeless and goes right back to the time Jesus with no interruption, but those who hold this view often have not studied the matter carefully and hold this view often based on their own erroneous suppositions.

Conclusion

In conclusion, many who hold those views are often so steeped in traditional views and so inflexible when it comes to anything dealing with the Bible, the spirit of learning new things is often something that they are afraid of. These dear people often forget the following texts (quoting here KJV):

"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (Il Peter 3:18).

"That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God." (Colossians 1:10).

"The path of the just is as a shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day" (Proverbs 4:18).

This is what I think Prof. William Webb is talking about in his work dealing with corporal punishment and how his approach moves us more towards the redemptive spirit of Scripture: To grow in grace and knowledge, but also to grow in love. (See www.redemptivechristianity.com)

Let us not fear the truth. Because "your Word is truth'. (John 17:17)

Download Samuel Martin's free ebook - Thy Rod and Thy Staff, They Comfort Me: Christians and the Spanking Controversy here - http://whynottrainachild.com/2013/06/22/download-martins-book/

Jesus Christ--our true calling - A guest post by Heather Schopp

Dear friends,

I am really happy to have wonderful guest post here from Heather Schopp. Heather can often be found on Karen Campbell's wonderful page - www.thatmom.com - Heather has a number of lectures on Karen's page from some of the conferences that she has taken part in. My recommendation? Listen to everything from Heather and Karen that you can get your ears around!

Heather is one of the most powerful and elegant writers you will find anywhere on God's great blogosphere. Check out some of her work here below.   

Jesus Christ--our true calling

We tend to make rigid fences of our denominations. The denomination's list of doctrines become the acceptable "truth"--anyone outside that fence is at best not as Christian, at worst condemned. People within the fence sometimes throw the word "heretic" at anyone who doesn't interpret the Bible according to their code. So we stand behind our fences and feel safe as the "chosen" or the "one true church."

But who am I to think I have the corner on truth?

My friend said it well: "I'm a Christian first, and I happen to feel comfortable practicing my faith as a Lutheran." ....not because Luther had all the correct answers, not because non-Lutherans are all wrong -- but simply because she feels content there and is growing in her faith. I too attend a denominational church, and I think it's natural and appropriate to find a place where it feels comfortable to worship, where one shares a common belief system with other attenders.

We are called not to take on the identity of our pastor or priest or church or denomination -- but to take on the identity of Jesus Christ. We have been given minds that question and doubt and are capable of learning and growing and changing -- are we allowing those questions to spring forth, the doubts to arise, that learning and changing and growing to happen? If we sit in our churches as mindless vessels, letting the speaker pour in his/her thoughts, we have set aside the instincts, the beautiful minds God has given us. How can that be honoring to Him? He alone has the corner on truth, is Truth itself.

More and more I see knowing Jesus, understanding truth, as a process. There is not a certain magic prayer that flips a switch and makes one a Christian, not a code that when followed grants a heavenly entrance, not a list of doctrines that when accepted puts a person on the "right path."

Jesus will is to draw all men to Himself -- we can resist, we can misunderstand, but He will not stop drawing and revealing His light. Our churches and denominations should enhance that process, should help us to understand and love Jesus and love others more.

When we let churches/denominations define our faith, when we allow them to put a barrier between us and other Christians, between us and the world, we do a disservice to our faith, to others, to the truth, to Jesus Christ. We should not fear questions of faith and doctrine, differences of beliefs and convictions -- they are opportunities for us to grow and draw closer to Jesus, Who remains the unchanging truth.

Greet each other with a holy kiss

"Greet each other with a holy kiss"

This post has been republished in a new book referenced below:

Amazon.com: Thy Rod and Thy Staff They Comfort Me - Book IV: Selected Essays on the Subject of Spanking Children in Support of Peaceful Parenting (9780978533984): Martin, Samuel: Books

Was Saint Paul really a “tentmaker” as we understand this idea today?

Was Saint Paul really a “tentmaker” as we understand this idea today?

I think that we are all fairly familiar with the general history of St. Paul and his life. We understand from the New Testament that St. Paul’s family, as far as the Jewish world was concerned, must have been considered quite well off. They were Roman citizens. In fact, he went to study Jewish law and jurisprudence in Jerusalem from an early age. He even mentions that he “studied at the feel of Gamliel.” (Acts 22:3) Note the following synopsis.

“In this article we aren’t so much interested in Paul’s biography as we are in relating his theological background to his role as apostle of grace. We know that Paul (then Saul) was born in Tarsus, the son of a Pharisee who was also a Roman citizen. Paul went to Jerusalem early in life to study with the great rabbi Gamaliel. In his first Jerusalem trial (Acts 22:2), Paul introduced himself to the Sanhedrin as he who learned "at the feet of Gamaliel." This phrase means more than we would take it for at first glance. It sounds like Paul is giving homage to his teacher, and that he hung on Gamaliel’s every word. Actually, Paul used this figure of speech to remind the Sanhedrin just how important a figure Saul of Tarsus was, even from his earliest years in Jerusalem. In the synagogues, students sat in an arrangement that reflected their academic position. We have a description of a typical academic synagogue setting in which Paul would have studied:

"The academy head presided, seated on a chair or on special mats. In the front rows opposite him sat the important scholars, including his colleagues or outstanding pupils, and behind them all the other scholars. When the academies grew larger, particularly in Palestine, the order of the seating was based on a precisely defined hierarchy. In the first row sat the great scholars, in the second row the less important sages, and so on" (Adin Steinsaltz, The Essential Talmud).

We can, therefore, picture the apostle as a young man, seated front and center, at the very feet of the renowned and revered Gamaliel. Already at the top of his class, he was on his way to becoming the leading Pharisee.

Paul also wrote to the Galatians (1:14) that he was extremely zealous for the law, and his academic accomplishments exceeded that of many of his peers. This may have been a humble way of saying that he really excelled above everyone when it came to legalistic knowledge. Along with other mentions of his "qualifications" (Phil. 3:4-6, Acts 22:3, 23:6) we can assume that Paul had no superiors in the world of Pharisaism. Had not God intervened in his life, he was destined to become the next great rabbinical leader. Just as men like Gamaliel, Hillel, Rabbi Akiba, and many others have become Talmudic legends, so also Saul of Tarsus would have doubtless joined the list. Perhaps he may have achieved the great title of Rabbi Saul of Tarsus.” (http://www.tidings.org/studies/legalism1199.htm)

No doubt, of the people who make up the writers of the Holy Bible, St. Paul was certainly the most educated. But did he make physical tents for a living? According to the book of Acts, Paul is termed as a “tentmaker.” (Greek: skenopoios) However, isn’t it interesting that find this word used only one time in the Bible? In addition, note that according to the Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature, in the article “Paul,” vol. VII, pg. 789, it says: “This trade is described by Luke as that of a skenopoios, a word regarding the meaning of which there has been no small difference of opinion.” Maybe this word does not actually mean “tentmaker?”

Yes, Paul may very well have been an actual tentmaker, but note what Ronald Hock of UCLA says: “That Paul was a tentmaker (skenopoios) we learn only from Luke (cf. Acts 18:3). Although there is no reason to doubt Luke at this point (cf. E. Haenchen; The Acts of the Apostles: A Commentary [Philadelphia: Westminster, 1971] 538), the nature of Paul’s trade is still not clear. Of the two options – weaving tent clothe from goat’s hair (cilicium) or cutting and sewing leather to make tents – the latter is to be preferred.”[1]

We can see from these points that it is not exactly clear what Paul’s precise occupation was. However, it appears to have involved leather cutting, which may have been used in the fashioning of tents.

Let us be clear though on one thing. St. Paul, being that most educated of all of the Biblical writers, he no doubt was involved in the transmission of written records (including his own) to the Christian Church. Note the following discussion that my father made concerning Paul and his academic pursuits, which related in a practical way to the construction of codex form books. Those of you who have read the book Restoring the Original Bible will remember this important discussion:

“Timothy and John Mark were asked by Paul to fetch three important items and bring them to Rome. "When you come, bring the cloak [Greek: phelonen] I left with Carpus, and the scrolls, especially the parchments" (II Timothy 4:13). It is interesting that the phelonen, usually considered to be a heavy outer garment, would be mentioned alongside the paper scrolls (actually scrolls made from the papyrus plant) and the parchments (these were animal skins on which permanent documents were normally written). It seems odd that a heavy coat would be in the same context with literary documents. Most scholars, however, point out that Paul wanted Timothy and Mark to hurry to Rome before winter (verse 21) and that he probably wanted the phelonen which he left with Carpus in order to keep himself warm when the cold would set in.

This may be the case, but there are some difficulties with this interpretation. The truth is, the word phelonen had another meaning in the Greek world at the time, and it is one that is intimately connected with scrolls and parchments.

Vincent, in his Word Studies in the New Testament, has this to say about the word phelonen.  "Hesychius explains it as originally a case for keeping the mouthpieces of wind-instruments; thence, generally, a box. Phrynicus, a Greek sophist of the second half of the third century, defines it as ‘a receptacle for books, clothes, silver, or anything else.' Phelonen was a wrapper of parchments, and was translated figuratively in Latin by toga or paenula ‘a cloak,' sometimes of leather; also the wrapping which a shopkeeper put round fish or olives; also the parchment cover for papyrus rolls.

Accordingly it is claimed that Timothy in 4:13 is bidden to bring, not a cloak, but a roll-case. So the Syriac Version." (p.326)

The fact is, the word phelonen can mean either a cloak (and it is commonly used that way in Greek literature) or it could mean a receptacle for the placement of scrolls and parchments. It is the context which must determine what the apostle Paul meant by the use of phelonen in II Timothy 4:13. Since the word is found right next to scrolls and parchments, the immediate context would suggest a "book cover" a "book case" or "book slip" into which scrolls or pages of books were placed. As Vincent stated, the Syriac Version of the New Testament understood it in that manner.

Chrysostom, in the fourth century, commented on this very reference of Paul's and stated that some thought Paul meant a "book case" a receptacle for books (Hom. in loc. vol. XI, p.780, ed. Gaume). Even Jerome mentioned this point (Epist. 36, ad Damasum).

What is meant can only be determined by the context, because the word can signify either a heavy outer coat, a book case or some outer cover for books. Even in our modern times we have problems in interpreting similar words unless a proper context is provided. Let me give two illustrations to show the difficulty.

In these examples we will consider the modern words jacket, wrap and cover, Suppose a letter were found in which a woman college student wrote her mother. She said that she wanted her mother to "go to the closet and get out my heavy jacket and send it to me. It will provide the cover I need from the cold. I am now using the wrap you gave me for my birthday and it is not warm enough."

If such a letter were found, the context makes it clear that the girl is talking about outer garments in all instances. But what if the following letter were found, "Go to the bookstore and buy the latest fiction book you wrote me about. Take the jacket off, because dust wraps on the books annoy me. Make sure, however, that the book has a hard cover because I don't like paperbacks."

Though these two illustrations use exactly the same words, they signify opposite things. Obviously, no one would get confused over what was intended in either case, because the contexts are plain as to what was meant. But let us return to our word phelonen in II Timothy 4:13. It could mean either a book case, a book wrapper, a book jacket, a book cover, or it could mean a heavy outer garment. Vincent in his Word Studies had no objection to it being an ordinary cloak because, like many other modern translators, he noted that Paul asked Timothy and John Mark to come to Rome before winter (verse 21). To many scholars this provides the context in which to interpret phelonen, though admittedly the reference to winter is eight verses away from the use of the word. On the other hand, the word phelonen is found in the very verse (and context) which mentions the scrolls and parchments that Paul needed. Contextually, it would seem more logical to think of phelonen as being associated with literary documents. Indeed, it is even better to consider it that way because Luke was still with Paul in Rome and surely he could have secured for Paul any protective garment to keep away the cold during the approaching winter. Would it be necessary to fetch an outer garment all the way from Troas to keep Paul covered for the short time he was to remain alive? The fact is, Paul's reference to winter (verse 21) is by context too far away for the phelonen to mean an actual cloak. But with the word intimately connected (in a perfect context) with the literary documents which Paul was urgently requesting Timothy and John Mark to bring with them, it seems more probable that the interpretation of the Syriac Version, along with the suggestions found in Chrysostom and Jerome, happen to be correct. It appears that Paul wanted his important book case (his receptacle for carrying books) to be brought at once to Rome and the request was one of pressing necessity.” (Ernest L. Martin, Restoring the Original Bible, ASK Publication: Portland:OR, 1994 pgs. 385-387)

In this discussion, we can note the interesting point that here is Paul referring to something which could have been very well made of leather and it was used to cover books? Very interesting when we consider the whole “tentmaker” argument because my father endeavored clearly to show that St. Paul was involved in the construction of books and manuscripts and official documents related to the Christian Church. Perhaps his trade was one of a leather worker and he just transferred the knowledge that he had acquired in making leather items, like tents, to the trade of making books with leather covers and bindings utilizing leather in their construction? One thing for sure, St. Paul was certainly a highly educated man whose career path was going not into the private sector, but his destiny was to be a doctor of the law with the title of Rabbi Saul. He does not seem to have prepared himself specifically for a life of commercial enterprise. Let me know what you think on this interesting issue. 

---

[1] http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-9231%28197812%2997%3A4%3C555%3APTATPO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-V&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

NO MORE! NO MORE TO FAMILY VIOLENCE INFLICTED ON KIDS IN JESUS NAME! NO MORE!

I am asking those of you to join me now in praying the peace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on all under His sun suffering from family violence.

I believe that Jesus is calling all of us who have eyes to see and ears to hear right now to a new Crusade, a Crusade of Peace, a Crusade of Love, a Crusade of Reconciliation. Jesus said: My sheep hear my voice. Do you hear Jesus? Is He speaking to you?

I believe that the Lord is speaking to us now and calling all of us committed to "sharing the peace" that we are so used to doing on weekly holy days to get out of our places of worship and go into the world to do so, to roll up our sleeves and go to work.

Here we are not taking about an abstract thing: peace; No, not at all! We are talking about God who became man and walked among us: Jesus. Jesus is our peace. It is He who we are asking to lead us to a more peaceful world and I believe the first place to start where Jesus wants us to work is at home, in every home.

I have seen on this page something very special happen since February 26. I ask anyone to simply look at what has happened since that date. A very simple post made on that day and 'promoted" in the begining for $10.00 US Dollars (which I am still 'promoting" now) has been I believe used by Jesus Christ. I will let you judge for yourself what you think. I have sent dozens of free ebooks and profoundly connected with tens of people who I feel are simply just saying: NO MORE! NO MORE TO FAMILY VIOLENCE INFLICTED ON KIDS IN JESUS NAME! NO MORE!

From this day forward this page will have as its main focus campaigning for peace.

I have a plan of what I intend to do in this month of March. Before I talk about that, I would like to hear your view. What is Jesus saying to you? We are His sheep. Are we hearing His voice?

Download Samuel Martin's free ebook - Thy Rod and Thy Staff, They Comfort Me: Christians and the Spanking Controversy here - https://www.biblechild.com/ 

It's not just what the words of Scripture say that are important, but how, when and where they are said that is also important

It's not just what the words of Scripture say that are important, but how, when and where they are said that is also important

If you just focus on the simple information found in the Bible and do not take into consideration the issue of how the Bible is designed, you are missing opportunities for learning.

I have some posts on my blog about the importance of the order of the Biblical books and some of the things we can learn from that issue.

http://samuelmartin.blogspot.co.il/2012/10/the-major-role-of-women-in-formation-of.html

http://samuelmartin.blogspot.co.il/2011/08/normal-0-false-false-false.html

http://samuelmartin.blogspot.co.il/2012/07/the-original-order-of-old-testament.html

 Note the following. If it is just the information and not also the design of the Bible that is important, why is it that in some Biblical texts, we find the almost exact same material found as in other Biblical texts?

The reason is, is that there is an important design found in Scripture and it is up to us to find out the deeper meanings of the text and not only just focus on what it is saying supposedly on the surface.

Note the following examples:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.
Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the LORD?
There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
You would shame the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is his refuge.
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.
(Psalm 14 ESV)

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.
God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.
Have those who work evil no knowledge,
who eat up my people as they eat bread,
and do not call upon God?
There they are, in great terror,
where there is no terror!
For God scatters the bones of him who encamps against you;
you put them to shame, for God has rejected them.
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When God restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.
(Psalm 53 ESV)

Both the above are virtually identical. The next two sets of examples are the same thing.

Make haste, O God, to deliver me!
O LORD, make haste to help me!
Let them be put to shame and confusion
who seek my life!
Let them be turned back and brought to dishonor
who delight in my hurt!
Let them turn back because of their shame
who say, “Aha, Aha!”
May all who seek you
rejoice and be glad in you!
May those who love your salvation
say evermore, “God is great!”
But I am poor and needy;
hasten to me, O God!
You are my help and my deliverer;
O LORD, do not delay!
(Psalm 70 ESV)

Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me!
O LORD, make haste to help me!
Let those be put to shame and disappointed altogether
who seek to snatch away my life;
let those be turned back and brought to dishonor
who delight in my hurt!
Let those be appalled because of their shame
who say to me, “Aha, Aha!”
But may all who seek you
rejoice and be glad in you;
may those who love your salvation
say continually, “Great is the LORD!”
As for me, I am poor and needy,
but the Lord takes thought for me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
do not delay, O my God!
(Psalm 40:13-17 ESV)

Who will bring me to the fortified city?
Who will lead me to Edom?
Have you not rejected us, O God?
You do not go forth, O God, with our armies.
Oh, grant us help against the foe,
for vain is the salvation of man!
With God we shall do valiantly;
it is he who will tread down our foes.
(Psalm 60:9-12 ESV)

Who will bring me to the fortified city?
Who will lead me to Edom?
Have you not rejected us, O God?
You do not go out, O God, with our armies.
Oh grant us help against the foe,
for vain is the salvation of man!
With God we shall do valiantly;
it is he who will tread down our foes.
(Psalm 108:10-13 ESV)

Note: For more information, see Ernest L. Martin's "Restoring the Original Bible" (ASK Publication: Portland:OR, 1994) , pg.481.

Let's pay close attention to design and content. You may find that there is meaning which needs to be discovered.

Download Samuel Martin's free ebook - Thy Rod and Thy Staff, They Comfort Me: Christians and the Spanking Controversy here - https://www.biblechild.com/